Archive for the 'Debate' Category

The trade seemed pretty innocent at the time. Near the end of spring training, the Tigers parted ways with Glenn Wilson and John Wockenfuss, and got in return Dave Bergman and Willie Hernandez. Bergman started more games at first base then any other Tiger, and we all know Hernandez went on to win the Cy Young and MVP.

Hernandez wasn’t your typical closer. He threw in 140 1/3 innings, and on 15 different occasions, he threw three innings or more. You’d be hard pressed to find a more effective relief combination then Hernandez and Aurelio Lopez. Ever. They combined for almost 280 innings, and went a combined 19-4 with 46 saves.

Let’s take a look at Hernandez’s (fantastic) numbers:

Innings Pitched 140 1/3
Wins 9
Losses 3
Saves 32
ERA 1.92
ERA+ 204
WHIP 0.941
H/9 6.16
BB/9 2.31
SO/9 7.18
HR/9 0.38
Pitching Runs Above Replacement 78
Stuff 21

I’ll let you go read those numbers again, just because they’re so impressive. What’s a little ironic is this isn’t even the best season a Tiger reliever’s ever had. That’s reserved for John Hiller in 1973.

No offense to Rawly Eastwick, but he never stood a chance. Not even a snowball’s chance in hell.

Scorecard – 1984 Tigers 8, 1975 Reds 7

Well, what do you know. It’s the first time in this entire debate where the Tigers have had the lead. And unfortunately for the Reds, it’s the most important because we’ve finally wrapped this up.

We all knew who had the better team anyway.

You can read Blade’s analysis of Rawly Eastwick at Reds Cutting Edge.

Senior Smoke had one of the more underappreciated careers of any Tiger in 1980s. He emerged as the Tigers’ closer in the last 70s, and his best season might have been 1979, when he finished seventh in the Cy Young. By 1981, he had lost the closer job to Kevin Saucier, and later, Dave Tobik until he picked it back up in 1983 and made the All-Star team.

His 1984 season was nothing short of fantastic. He set a career high by pitching in 137 2/3 innings (unheard of by a reliever these days), and posted a near perfect 10-1 record, with his only loss coming in the final week of the season. If there was one fault to Lopez’s game, it was his propensity to give up the long ball. But he finished his career with an impressive 62-36 career record, while racking up 93 saves.

Here’s Lopez’s 1984 numbers:

Innings Pitched 137 2/3
Wins 10
Losses 1
Saves 14
ERA 2.94
ERA+ 133
WHIP 1.169
H/9 7.13
BB/9 3.40
SO/9 6.15
HR/9 1.05
Pitching Runs Above Replacement 43
Stuff 4

Both his PRAR and his Stuff were hurt because of his homer rate, but this is an impressive season for a reliever by any standard. The fact that he was the second best reliever on the team that year means Sparky had two outstanding arms coming out of the pen.

Will McEnaney, while having a solid season, doesn’t really match up. Lopez was better, and he did it over several more innings. So it looks like we’re tied going into the homestretch.

Scorecard – 1975 Reds 7, 1984 Tigers 7

You can read Blade’s analysis of Will McEnaney at Reds Cutting Edge.

Sparky loved his relievers. Throughout “Bless You Boys,” the one thing Sparky constantly talks about is how he needs Bill Lajoie to go out and get him another left handed reliever. And in my opinion, nobody knew how to utilize his bullpen better then Captain Hook.

Through the end of July, Doug Bair was right there with Aurelio Lopez, and to a lesser extent, was as effective as Willie Hernandez. Through 65 innings, he had a 1.077 WHIP and an ERA of 3.05. Then in his first game in August, the wheels fell off the wagon, and he gave up two runs in only 1/3 of an inning. He had three more rough outings before recovering near the middle of the month. Fortunately during his rough stretch, the Tigers had a lead over the Blue Jays of just under ten games, but he ended the month with a 2.152 WHIP and an 8.80 ERA. He then went on to be lights out in September.

Let’s take a look at Bair’s season numbers..

Innings Pitched 93 2/3
Wins 5
Losses 3
Saves 4
ERA 3.75
ERA+ 105
WHIP 1.260
H/9 7.88
BB/9 3.46
SO/9 5.48
HR/9 0.96
Pitching Runs Above Replacement 21
Stuff -1

On the face of things, I’d say Clay Carroll looks better. But Bair was as good, if not better, when things counted during the beginning of the year. Since we’re looking at the entire season, I guess I have to concede.

Scorecard – 1975 Reds 7, 1984 Tigers 6

You can read Blade’s analysis of Clay Carroll at Reds Cutting Edge.

A part of just about any championship team includes a career year or two. Juan Berenguer fell into that mix. Berenguer’s career spanned fifteen years and was pretty unspectacular. He played for seven different teams, and went from being a starter, to a spot starter/middle reliever, to a reliever, doing well but not exceptional everywhere he went. His best role seemed to be as a reliever, when he pitched for Twins and helped them win their championship in 1987.

While he didn’t log an inning in the post season, Juan Berenguer started 27 games for Sparky and won 11 of them. He looked great at times, but also took his share of beatings. But in the end, he had one of the better strikeout rates on the team, and was one of Sparky’s hardest throwers.

Let’s take a look at the numbers:

Innings Pitched 168 1/3
Wins 11
Losses 10
ERA 3.48
ERA+ 113
WHIP 1.337
H/9 7.81
BB/9 4.22
SO/9 6.30
HR/9 0.74
Pitching Runs Above Replacement 43
Stuff 13

Berenguer gave up his share of walks, but he also was pretty good at not letting the ball go over the fence. All in all, he gave the Tigers a nice option as a number four starter, and in my opinion, would mop the floor with Fred Norman if they went head to head.

Scorecard – 1975 Reds 6, 1984 Tigers 6

You can read Blade’s analysis of Fred Norman at Reds Cutting Edge.

Also, a quick postscript. Berenguer pitched in four of the five games for the Twins in the ALCS, taking the Tigers to task. I’ve never completely forgiven him for this.

Championship teams usually consist of a convergance between an improving core of young players with a handful of career years from a couple of your veterans. Milt Wilcox had a 16 year career in baseball, and he never won three games more then he lost in a season. Had it not been for his 17-8 campaign in 1984, he would have ended his career with a losing record. Simply put, in 1984, Milt Wilcox came out to pitch, and pitch he did.

He also saved his best for the end of the season. In game three of the ALCS against the Royals, Wilcox gave up only two hits in eight innings of shutout ball to put the Tigers into the World Series.

Equally ironic is the fact that his opponent in this debate, Jack Billingham, threw for Detroit, while Wilcox started his career in Cincinnati.

Let’s take a look at how he did in 1984:

Innings Pitched 193 2/3
Wins 17
Losses 8
ERA 4.00
ERA+ 98
WHIP 1.286
H/9 8.5
BB/9 3.09
SO/9 5.53
HR/9 0.60
Pitching Runs Above Average 37
Stuff 14

If you take a look at the differences between Jack Morris, Dan Petry, and Milt Wilcox, you won’t many. Wilcox threw around 40 innings less then both of them, but when he was in there, he was equally effective. In fact, their strikeout rates are nearly identical, with the best (Petry) just .02 SO/9 better then the worst (Wilcox).

At first glance, I thought this one was going to be a lot tighter, but it’s really no contest. Billingham threw a few more innings, but that’s about all you can say.

Scorecard 1975 Reds 6, 1984 Tigers 5

You can read Blade’s analysis of Jack Billingham at Reds Cutting Edge.

Dan Petry had one of those typical 1980s career. He pitched a ton of innings at an early age, and went from looking like an ace to someone who’s just a little overmatched. From 1982 through 1985, he pitched no less 233 innings and won no less then 15 games. After that, he never pitched more then a 150 innings, and never won more then ten.

1984 was a great year for Petry. Coming off a 19-11 season the year before, Dan really picked up the slack when Jack Morris struggled. He had a career high 144 strikeouts during the season, and led all starters in ERA (3.24).

Dan Petry is now the television announcer here for UPN 50. He did a nice job last year in his first season, and I’m looking forward to him being back this year.

Anyway, here’s the numbers:

Innings Pitched 233 1/3
Wins 18
Losses 8
ERA 3.24
ERA+ 121
WHIP 1.273
H/9 8.91
BB/9 2.55
SO/9 5.55
HR/9 0.81
Pitching Runs above Replacement 65
Stuff 16

This may be the toughest one yet. Petry threw more, had a better walk rate, and won more games. Don Gullett won 15 games in only 22 starts (so three less, but in a third of the of starts). Their Stuff is identical, and their SO/9 is nearly identical, but Gullett has a better ERA and WHIP, and gave up fewer homers.

I hate to hang Dan out to dry, but at least comparing these two seasons, Gullett has him beat.

Scorecard 1975 Reds 6, 1984 Tigers 4

You can read Blade’s analysis of Don Gullett over at Reds Cutting Edge once he’s done reminiscing about the 1880s.

At this point, Jack Morris thrives and starves on reputation, and it shows when the voting for the Hall of Fame comes out. He’s heralded as a clutch pitcher mostly for his 1991 World Series Game Seven ten inning shutout. He had a 4-2 record in the World Series, but he was 4-0 until his last World Series when he played for the Jays in 1992. And although he never won the Cy Young, he finished in the top five on five different occasions.

The general criticism is that his career numbers aren’t quite there. He has a career ERA of 3.90, and his career ERA+ is 105, so it’s a touch above average. And he never hit any of those magic marks like 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts.

As far as his career, I’m right in the middle. I know he’s not quite as good as his best moments would indicate (similar to Kirk Gibson), but he’s not quite as bad as his numbers might show. As long as Bert Blyleven isn’t in the Hall of Fame, I can’t quite give him the nod, but barring that, Jack Morris was a very good pitcher for a very long time, and that’s worth something.

1984 was a tale of two seasons for Morris. by the end of May he stood 10-1, and people started throwing out the potential for 30 wins. When it was all said and done, he didn’t even win 20, but by the time he began to struggle, the Tigers already had a nice enough cushion to where it didn’t matter as much.

Let’s take a look at the numbers:

Innings Pitched 240 1/3
Wins 19
Losses 11
ERA 3.60
ERA+ 109
WHIP 1.282
H/9 8.28
BB/9 3.26
SO/9 5.54
HR/9 0.75
Pitching Runs Above Replacement 60
Stuff 14

All pretty good numbers. He finished seventh in the Cy Young (behind two teammates) and that was all despite the horrible second half.

As Blade indicated, this was a lot closer then I first through it would be. Gary Nolan had a nice season in 1975, but in my eyes, it just didn’t stack up to the season Morris had. And Morris was better for 30 more innings.

Scoredboard – 1975 Reds 5, 1984 Tigers 4

You can read Blade’s analysis of Gary Nolan over at Reds Cutting Edge.

Kirk Gibson may not get into the Hall of Fame, but he definitely had some Hall of Fame moments. His monster three run shot in Game 5 of the 1984 World Series, and an equally impressive Game 1 walk off homer in the 1988 World Series are my two most memorable moments in all of baseball.

1984 was Gibby’s breakout season, and he was extremely consistent for the next five years. He hit between 24 and 29 homers in each of those five seasons, and he stole between 26 and 34 bases. He was plagued by injuries most of his career, and was only able to play in 140 games in three or more seasons.

There’s no doubt that Kirk Gibson had the most potent bat of all his 1984 counterparts. Gibson finished sixth in the MVP voting in 1984, and he was ninth in OPS+.

Let’s take a look at his numbers.

Runs 92
Homeruns 27
RBIs 91
Avg. .282
OBP .363
Slg% .516
Runs Created 98
OPS+ 142
Batting Runs Above Replacement 52
Fielding Runs Above Replacement -1
Equivalent Average .305
Wins Above Replacement Player 5.6

Gibson was never known for his fielding, but he could hit. Ken Griffey had a nice season, but Gibby had a great one. Blade says this one was close, and it might have been if we were comparing Gibson to the 1976 Griffey, but we’re not.

Scorecare – 1975 Reds 5, 1984 Tigers 3

You can read Blade’s analysis of Ken Griffey at Reds Cutting Edge.

If there was one player I most tried to mimic as a kid, it was Chet Lemon. The way he’d casually go back, stand under the ball, and just sort of hold his mitt under the ball, letting it fall into his glove was classic. Rarely did he catch anything two handed, and rarely did I. In fact I still catch grief when I play softball, since I basically conditioned myself to catch the ball without both hands.

1984 was a great season for Chet Lemon. What’s funny is, I don’t remember him for a great catch. And I don’t remember him for a clutch homer. What I do remember him for is going back on a fly ball, losing it in the sun, and getting clocked in the head. I vividly remember sitting in friend’s basement and watching Gibby and a couple other Tigers carrying Chet off the field.

Chet Lemon didn’t set any career marks in 1984, but he probably had his best all-around season. His twenty homers were second best to the year before, and his batting average, on base percentage, and slugging were all above his career marks.

Here’s the numbers:

Runs 77
Homeruns 20
RBIs 76
Average .287
OBP .357
Slg% .495
Runs Created 88
OPS+ 135
Batting Runs Above Replacement 41
Fielding Runs Above Replacement 41
Equalized Average .295
Wins Above Replacement Player 9.0

Chet Lemon had a WARP of 9.0, which tied him with Tram for the team lead, so he was as much of an MVP on this team then anyone. Gibby had a monster season at the plate, but his defensive skills (or lack of) hurt when it came to WARP.

And it looks like Blade doesn’t have much to argue about here. In fact he conceded a lot more easily then I thought.

Scorecard – 1975 Reds 5, 1984 Tigers 2

You can read Blade’s analysis of Cesar Geronimo at Reds Cutting Edge.

Sparky Anderson loved to platoon. And left field was no exception in 1984. After coming off of back to back quality seasons in 1982 and 1983, Larry Herndon lost time to the recently acquired Ruppert Jones, who actually outplayed him in the time he got.

Herndon, as you’ll see, had a pretty mediocre season. He only played in 125 games, and although he did hit .280, it was really without a lot of punch. Let’s take a look at the numbers:

Runs 52
Homeruns 7
RBIs 43
Avg. .280
OBP .333
Slg% .400
Runs Created 54
OPS+ 104
Batting Runs Above Replacement 17
Fielding Runs Above Replacement 12
Equalized Average .266
Wins Above Replacement Player 3.2

The OPS+ of 104 and the equalized average of .266 tell it all. To take things one step further, his Batting Runs Above Average was 3, and his Fielding Runs Above Average was 0. It’s unanimous. Larry Herndon had a pretty average season, and doesn’t match up to George Foster.

Score Card 1975 Reds 5, 1984 Tigers 1

You can read Blade’s analysis of George Foster at Reds Cutting Edge.

Leave it up to Tram. Old reliable. He had a career OPS+ of only 110, and he had just as many seasons below 100 as he did above. But over almost 2,300 career games, he posted a batting average of .285, and an OBP of .352.

1983 was Alan Trammell’s breakout season. In fact it was almost a carbon copy of what he would do in 1984. The five time All Star finished in the top five in hitting in four different seasons, and finished in the top 10 of the MVP voting on three different occasions, including a ninth place finish in 1984. He never won the award, but probably should have in 1987, when he lost out to George Bell.

Alan Trammell was also a solid fielder, winning four gold gloves in five years until Tony Fernandez stepped onto the scene and began his streak of four straight in 1986.

Let’s take a look at the numbers:

Runs 85
Homeruns 14
RBIs 69
Avg. .314
OBP .382
SLG% .468
Runs Created 98
OPS+ 136
Batting Runs Above Replacement 46
Fielding Runs Above Replacement 36
Equalized Average .297
Wins Above Replacement Player 9.0

So, the shutout ends. I actually thought Dave Concepcion would give Trammell a run, because he had quite a good career, but 1975 wasn’t one of his better seasons. Outside of fielding, Trammell is the better player. And even comparing these two seasons, that differential wasn’t very big.

Scorecard 1975 Reds 4, 1984 Tigers 1

You can read Blade’s analysis of Dave Concepcion at Reds Cutting Edge.

Howard Johnson was one of those Tigers who got away. The switch hitting rookie had a solid campaign his first season, hitting twelve homeruns and driving in fifty in 355 at bats. But for whatever reason, he never was on Sparky’s good side and during the offseason, he was traded to the Mets for Walt Terrell, a solid left handed starter.

HoJo then went on to have three 30/30 seasons, and he finished in the top 10 of the MVP voting three times for the Mets. In 1991, he led the league in homeruns (38) and RBIs (117) and was seventh in OPS (.877). The Tigers on the other hand, went through Tom Brookens (a solid player and a fan favorite, but hardly an all star as he hit .246 for his career), Darnell Coles (had a solid 1986, but nothing much after that), Rick Schu (.214 as a starter in 1989), and Tony Phillips (utility man who played more at third then anywhere else) during Johnson’s peak years. It wasn’t until Travis Fryman in 1991 when the Tigers developed a regular, everyday third basemen.

But enough about my gripes. Here’s the the numbers on HoJo’s rookie season:

Runs 43
Homeruns 12
RBIs 50
Average .248
OBP .324
Slg% .394
Runs Created 45
OPS+ 99
Batting Runs Above Replacement 13
Fielding Runs Above Replacement 6
Equalized Average .260
Wins Above Replacement Player 2.1

Well, it looks like I’m getting skunked so far, because the Howard Johnson of 1984 doesn’t match up to Pete Rose. But with Tram and the outfield coming up, I see a turn coming.

Scorecard – 1975 Reds 4, 1984 Tigers 0

You can read Blade’s analysis of Pete Rose at Reds Cutting Edge.

Lou Whitaker was always my favorite Tiger growing up. I think it was the way everyone chanted “Lou” at the games. Little did I know that this was common practice for any player with the first name Lou. Lou Piniella apparantly got the chant, as does Lou Merloni (at least he did when he played for the Red Sox).

Whitaker is listed as the thirteenth best second basemen of all time by Bill James in his Historical Baseball Abstract. He was a great hitter with two strikes on him, and ended his career with more walks then strikeouts. He followed up what was probably his best season in 1983 with a solid campaign in 1984. He won the gold glove despite what the numbers show over at Baseball Prospectus, and played in the All Star Game in 1984.

Let’s take a look at the numbers:

Runs 90
Home Runs 13
RBIs 56
Avg. .289
OBP .357
SLG% .407
Runs Created 81
OPS+ 113
Batting Runs Above Replacement 30
Fielding Runs Above Replacement 19
Equalized Average .276
Wins Above Replacement Player 5.4

A fine season, but compared to the MVP of the league, and according to Bill James, the 15th best player of all time at any position, he just doesn’t quite stack up.

Scorecare 1975 Reds 3, 1984 Tigers 0

You can read Blade’s analysis of Joe Morgan at Red’s Cutting Edge.

Prior to the 1984 season, the Tigers made what, at the time, was the biggest free agent pickup in the history of the team. Signing Darrell Evans was a big deal, similar to the Tiger’s signing Pudge in 2004 was a big deal. And in 1984, Darrell Evans was a big bust. I won’t go into too much detail on him because he mostly played DH, but his contribution was minimal. Of course in 1985 he’d hit 40 homeruns, but his 28 extra base hits in 1984 left Tiger’s fans wondering if, at 37, he was over the hill.

The other deal the Tigers made was a trade with the Phillies. The Tigers sent John Wockenfuss and Glenn Wilson to the Phillies for Willie Hernandez and first basemen Dave Bergman. Bergman got the bulk of the starts at first base in 1984, and was platooned there for the rest of the 1980s.

He only played in 131 games during the season, and here’s what his numbers looked like in 1984:

Runs 42
Homeruns 7
RBIs 44
Average .273
OBP .351
SLG% .417
Runs Created 39
OPS+ 113
Batting Runs Above Replacement 15
Fielding Runs Above Replacement 15
Equalized Average .276
Wins Above Replacement Player 3.3

The 113 OPS+ isn’t anything to complain about, but the rest of his numbers just weren’t there. This one was pretty much a clean sweep, as Tony Perez and the Reds win another one.

Score – 1975 Reds 2, 1984 Tigers 0

You can read Blade’s analysis of Tony Perez at Reds Cutting Edge.

With the exception of the 1945 Team, the Detroit Tigers have had great catchers on each of their World Championship Teams. In 1935, player/manager Mickey Cochrane ended up number four among all catchers in Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract. The 1968 team had Bill Freehan (ranked 12th), and of course 1984 sported Tiger great, and current bullpen coach, Lance Parrish (ranked 19th).

1982 is probably Parrish’s best season, although he was fairly consistent throughout the early 1980s. 1984 was also one of his better seasons, and this is what it looks like:

Runs 75
Homeruns 33
RBIs 98
Average .237
OBP .287
SLG% .443
Runs Created 73
OPS+ 100
Batting Runs Above Replacement 17
Fielding Runs Above Replacement 36
Equalized Average .255
Wins Above Replacement Players 5.9

It’s hard to argue against a Hall of Famer, so I think I’m going save the good fight for another day. This one goes to Johnny Bench.

Score – 1975 Reds 1, 1984 Tigers 0

You can read Blade’s analysis at Reds Cutting Edge.

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